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Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
http://galaxylegion.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1413		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Qualon [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
I personally have no desire to fight other players and had planned to only fight NPCs. However, after winning two battles I now find out that a quest with a minimum "two enemy kill" requirement is still not open to me. :evil:

1. How about making it so that the NPC kills count for these type of quests also?

In addition: I ran out of energy in the middle of my first fight. But no problem! I was able to refill it using the free 10 GP we start the game with, return to the site of the battle, and prevail. Presumably I could have repaired my hull and shields in the same manner? Maybe this is not possible during a player vs. player fight and this is why the NPC fights do not count as real kills. However, it would be a lot better (and more realistic) if this kind of thing could NOT be done.

Scenario as it is now: Friday night. I (and other potential targets) are not online. Player killer comes on and starts attacking. He runs out of energy midway through because he has ZERO reactors installed.* He stops, puts a few coins in the slot and continues until I am disabled, then goes on his merry way.

Scenario as it should be: Friday night. I (and other potential targets) are not online. Player killer comes on and starts attacking. He runs out of energy midway through because he has ZERO reactors installed.* He stops, puts a few coins in the slot and comes back, but I'm not on his target list any more because I ran away while he was at the gas station! OR, at least, if he can go and get energy/repaired, he could at least come back and find my ship fully repaired (assuming I have the credits in reserve to repair it). Unfortunately, the repair scenario can easily be misused to make an offline player use up all their credits if the attacker has unlimited (i.e. real money) reserves.

2. How about making it so that if the attacker (of a player OR an NPC) takes any other action other than "attack," the fight is considered OVER whether anyone got disabled or not? The attacked ship should then disappear from the target list (or, in the case of an NPC, it could simply become completely repaired).

* The player killer who disabled me this past Friday night had exactly this setup - NO reactors at all. I know he could have had engineers, but they don't go as far (he was level 42).
Author:  Cothordin [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
IMO PVP is a part of the game, if you choose to ignore it you face the consequences. if you dont want to PVP and all thats fine, but be prepared not to be able to do missions with PVP requirements. Thusly, im against this.
Author:  Qualon [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
Cothordin wrote:
IMO PVP is a part of the game, if you choose to ignore it you face the consequences. if you dont want to PVP and all thats fine, but be prepared not to be able to do missions with PVP requirements. Thusly, im against this.


How about making it a bit clearer on the mission requirements, then? Right now it states "you have not disabled enough enemy players." I realize that to you this will be perfectly clear because it says "players." However, the way I saw it, NPCs were also players since they had ships that could be disabled and were part of the game"play." And if I read it this way, other people did too (there is a question in the newbie section from someone else asking for clarification on this exact subject). How about something along the lines of "you have not disabled enough non-NPC enemies" ?
Author:  ODragon [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
I agree with you. As someone who has no desire to fight other people, getting the hacks/kills/raids needed to open up those missions was a pain. It would be nice if NPCs were considered for these. It would also be nice if they were hack/raidable.
Author:  hunter [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
ODragon wrote:
I agree with you. As someone who has no desire to fight other people, getting the hacks/kills/raids needed to open up those missions was a pain. It would be nice if NPCs were considered for these. It would also be nice if they were hack/raidable.


some mission types are not for every player. there is a wide variety of types that require too much scan or cloak. these mission were locked for me until recently. i completed all the combat related ones instead. the missions you do reflect your game-play. getting 3 kills is trivial. i have a feeling that the kill requirement increases with higher level missions, but i have never been limited by it myself.

the best thing to do is focus on cloak and scan. cloak will allow you to hide from pure PvP ships with no reactors, scanners, or cloak.
Author:  Qualon [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
hunter wrote:
the best thing to do is focus on cloak and scan. cloak will allow you to hide from pure PvP ships with no reactors, scanners, or cloak.


I never said I was terrified of being attacked, only that it was really no test of ability if all a person had to do was la-la-la go pay money to fully recharge (energy, shield, and hull) every time they got a little low while their target just sat there and waited patiently to be destroyed. At that rate you could kill the highest level enemy with just one autocannon if you were willing to shell out enough cash (since there is also a restriction against 1-hit kills in the game).

My thinking is that if the attacker leaves the area (does anything other than continue attacking, such as fix his ship or refill his energy) then the target should at least have a CHANCE of not being there when the attacker returns. After all, the target was not disabled or the fight would have been over. And if not disabled, then it can get away.
Author:  hunter [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
Qualon wrote:
I never said I was terrified of being attacked, only that it was really no test of ability if all a person had to do was la-la-la go pay money to fully recharge (energy, shield, and hull) every time they got a little low while their target just sat there and waited patiently to be destroyed. At that rate you could kill the highest level enemy with just one autocannon if you were willing to shell out enough cash (since there is also a restriction against 1-hit kills in the game).

My thinking is that if the attacker leaves the area (does anything other than continue attacking, such as fix his ship or refill his energy) then the target should at least have a CHANCE of not being there when the attacker returns. After all, the target was not disabled or the fight would have been over. And if not disabled, then it can get away.


if attacked though the battle tab after the ship is attacked at all, the ship will vanish from the list and cannot be attacked again if the player wants to stop to repair etc. the only way this would work if if the ship had a direct link to the ship itself in the ships log. and if a player wants to spend LOTS of $$$ to attack high levels they are supporting the game financially. this means faster game improvements for the rest of us. that higher level can easily return the favor without GP. brutally if required :roll:
Author:  Qualon [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
hunter wrote:
if attacked though the battle tab after the ship is attacked at all, the ship will vanish from the list and cannot be attacked again if the player wants to stop to repair etc.


I posted originally after I was able to stop and refill with energy with galaxy points and then continue a battle in progress. If the ship (an NPC) had vanished from the list at that point, I would not have been surprised and would certainly never have posted what I did. But it did not vanish or even become repaired and I was able to continue and win a battle I shouldn't really have won due to a miscalculation on energy (I started without a full energy bank).

If you cannot repair without consequences then that at least is good; however you should not be able to do anything (other than continue attacking) without consequences, including refill with energy. If NPCs are exempt from this requirement, they shouldn't be. And the NPCs needn't disappear from the list; they can just become fully repaired again.

If this is the reason that NPCs do not count towards "kills" for quest requirements, then that's understandable. However, this should be changed: The NPCs should follow the same engagement rules as the PvPs ... AND ... count as kills.

I understand that many think GL players should be forced to play exactly as they do so they are against any change that permits someone to play differently (never mind that this change will NOT force someone who wants to PvP to stop doing so). I just think that kills should be kills. Otherwise what is the point in having NPC commons at all. Why aren't we just expected to attack each other exclusively?

edited to add:
hunter wrote:
and if a player wants to spend LOTS of $$$ to attack high levels they are supporting the game financially. this means faster game improvements for the rest of us.


People who want to spend money on the game will do so regardless, in this case just to refill their energy bank and recharge their shields so they can attack someone else without waiting 8 hours. They will just be forced to use actual strategy, which will be of benefit to the rest of us.
Author:  Cothordin [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
NPCs can never be considered as player kills simply because they never will be as resourceful and random as a player will. AI follow certain paths that are preprogrammed into them because of this simply by fighting the same NPC a few times you can know exactly what there going to do. So even if you were to allow NPCs to be able to use artifacts, attack you out of the blue, and even call for other NPCs to help it still wouldn't be the same as taking on a player.

Take Starcraft A.I.s for instance, at no setting will a Terran A.I. ever attempt a planetary fortress rush, players on the other hand do though.

Im all for clarifying on the missions requirements that the kills need to be player kills but an A.I. will never be the same as a person, thusly NPC kills are not equivalent to Player Kills and cannot be treated as such.

Sorry but this is the equivalent of complaining that you dont have a 100% legion bonus because you dont have 100+ legion members. If your not going to take part in an area of gameplay dont complain when you dont get the pros from it.
Author:  Qualon [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
Cothordin wrote:
Im all for clarifying on the missions requirements that the kills need to be player kills but an A.I. will never be the same as a person, thusly NPC kills are not equivalent to Player Kills and cannot be treated as such.

Sorry but this is the equivalent of complaining that you dont have a 100% legion bonus because you dont have 100+ legion members. If your not going to take part in an area of gameplay dont complain when you dont get the pros from it.


:?: So you are all for the clarification but you have to insult me anyway? I really think you need to re-read my posts as you are evidently culling them for things you can just argue about.

1. I stated that it needed to say more clearly that PvP was what was required. If it had, I would never have been irritated by not getting the mission opened to me and would never have posted. Yes, I made an initial suggestion that the NPC kills should count and you already said you didn't like it in a previous post.

2. The other thing I mentioned that you have NOT commented on was that NO ONE (yes, that includes ME the "complainer") should be able to refill with energy mid-battle as it is completely unrealistic (PvP OR NPC). This would actually make winning a battle require strategy instead of just money. It is not a whine for some undeserved bonus.
Author:  webguydan [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
The mission requirement tooltip currently states the following 2 differences:

NPCs: "You have not disabled enough non-player enemies."
Players: "You have not disabled enough enemy players."
Author:  Qualon [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
webguydan wrote:
The mission requirement tooltip currently states the following 2 differences:

NPCs: "You have not disabled enough non-player enemies."
Players: "You have not disabled enough enemy players."


Thank you, Dan.

My concern was that since I did not see the two statements together, as a new player I did not distinguish "enemy players" from "enemies" period (of either flavor). I'm not the only one who made this mistake, either; see this post in the Beginner's Hub: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410, for instance. My suggestion was that the Player tooltip be clarified to something along the line of "You have not disabled enough non-NPC enemies" or "You have not disabled enough enemies in PvP combat." I realize this is kicking a dead horse for people who already know this like you and Cothordin and anyone who has been playing a long time, but it would have prevented disappointment for me and probably other people as well who do not bother to post.

And thank you for your work on the game; I'm enjoying it to the point of obsession.
Author:  Cothordin [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let NPC kills count as enemy kills
webguydan wrote:
The mission requirement tooltip currently states the following 2 differences:

NPCs: "You have not disabled enough non-player enemies."
Players: "You have not disabled enough enemy players."

Awesome
Qualon wrote:
Cothordin wrote:
Im all for clarifying on the missions requirements that the kills need to be player kills but an A.I. will never be the same as a person, thusly NPC kills are not equivalent to Player Kills and cannot be treated as such.

Sorry but this is the equivalent of complaining that you dont have a 100% legion bonus because you dont have 100+ legion members. If your not going to take part in an area of gameplay dont complain when you dont get the pros from it.


:?: So you are all for the clarification but you have to insult me anyway? I really think you need to re-read my posts as you are evidently culling them for things you can just argue about.

1. I stated that it needed to say more clearly that PvP was what was required. If it had, I would never have been irritated by not getting the mission opened to me and would never have posted. Yes, I made an initial suggestion that the NPC kills should count and you already said you didn't like it in a previous post.

2. The other thing I mentioned that you have NOT commented on was that NO ONE (yes, that includes ME the "complainer") should be able to refill with energy mid-battle as it is completely unrealistic (PvP OR NPC). This would actually make winning a battle require strategy instead of just money. It is not a whine for some undeserved bonus.

I think you need to calm down a bit.
1: I was responding to this,
Qualon wrote:
I just think that kills should be kills. Otherwise what is the point in having NPC commons at all. Why aren't we just expected to attack each other exclusively?
. Now as for "insulting" no one has done that, I have just put an argument up against you.
2: The only situation where an enemy not having enough energy to defeat you but then by using an energy refilling technique would matter is if your offline, in which case too bad, your offline. Thats a disadvantage in and of itself, if this is implemented will it bridge the gap between CCers and non CCers, sure. But then whats the point of CCing for PVP if its not worth anything?

I dont like CCers but just like how Planet Fluxes are total BS in someone situations having an energy cube is too. If people are willing to pay for having one on command then im sorry but though crap.


Now as for maybe implementing a timer on how many of an artifact you can buy in a certain amount of time, that I would like implemented.
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